The silence of the Republicans: Gay marriage for America

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Gay Marriage by Mike Licht for Flickr = https://www.flickr.com/photos/notionscapital/
Gay Marriage by Mike Licht for Flickr = https://www.flickr.com/photos/notionscapital/

WASHINGTON, October 25, 2014 – The Supreme Court’s decision this month not to review circuit court rulings on same-sex marriage was a surprise to many Court observers, even if the result of that decision was not. Another surprise is that same-sex marriage has nearly vanished as a topic in the looming midterm elections.

Just a few years ago, SSM was a topic guaranteed to bring the GOP base to the polls. In 2004, 11 of 11 states that had measures to ban SSM on the ballot passed them. Three bans passed in 2008, bringing to total number of states banning SSM to 30. Senators Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton both opposed legalizing SSM that year; whether they did so out of conviction or political expedience, opposition to SSM was clearly the safer position that year.

What passed in the states went down with surprising quickness in the courts. The Supreme Court ruled twice last year against laws preventing same-sex marriage, and it was expected that the Court would continue to expand marriage rights. However, the Court had signaled that it would probably return to the issue after it stayed the ruling that set aside Utah’s gay marriage ban, among others. Its decision not to decide effectively rejected appeals from Indiana, Oklahoma, Utah, Virginia and Wisconsin to prevent same-sex marriage.

The next day, the Ninth Circuit Court in San Francisco struck down bans in Idaho and Nevada.


If that was a surprise, so has been the relative silence from the GOP. That silence has been reinforced by the lack of enthusiasm from groups once passionate on the subject to get back into the fray now. The day before the Court’s non-decision, Dallin H. Oakes, in an address to the membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints during the church’s general conference, said that church members should “accept unfavorable results graciously, and practice civility.” Oaks said Latter-day Saints should show goodwill toward all and reject persecution based on race, ethnicity, religious belief and sexual orientation.

Oakes is a member of the “Quorum of Twelve Apostles,” one of the ruling bodies of the LDS Church, and a former Utah Supreme Court justice.

Oakes’s message seems almost to capture the feelings of the GOP leadership: We may not like gay marriage, but we won’t win this, so move on. And it has done more than move on. House Speaker John Boehner has actively supported gay Republicans in two House races: Carl DeMaio in San Diego — Boehner attended a DeMaio fund raiser in San Diego — and Richard Tisei in Massachusetts.

Other Republican candidates in this election cycle have backed “gay rights,” and at least one Republican Senate candidate, Oregon’s Monica Wehby, has featured a same-sex couple in her advertising. Republican Senator Rob Portman announced his support for same-sex marriage rights in 2013.

This has not gone unopposed by conservatives. The Family Research Council and the National Organization for Marriage have both bitterly complained about the drift by Boehner and the National Republican Congressional Committee to be more inclusive of gays in the GOP. “Carl DeMaio, Richard Tisei and Monica Wehby are antithetical to the Republican platform,” they said in a letter addressed to Republican leaders, including John Boehner and Mitch McConnell. Yet the GOP seems not to be listening, nor do many Republicans.

The GOP does not support SSM; the level of support is only at 30 percent, though that is up from 21 percent in 2001. But support shoots up to 60 percent among Republicans under 30, a fact that is of crucial importance to Republican leaders.

It’s of importance to the religious right as well. Support for SSM has risen dramatically among white, mainline Protestants, with most of them — 60 percent — expressing support. Support remains low among white evangelical Protestants, at 23 percent, but even there support has almost doubled in the last ten years. And most of that growing support has been among the young.

Conservative religious leaders face a problem on the legality of SSM from their own pews. While they cannot be expected to change their views of sin in response to shifting public opinion, they will find it easier to deal with homosexuality as a sin within their own ranks than as an appropriate subject of social policy.

Savvy politicians can understand a trend line and generational changes as well as anyone. Religious conservatives remain important to the GOP, and they are making noise on this issue. GOP leadership is not about to start actively promoting SSM or other issues important to gays across the board, but they are learning to be silent. To their critics, silence is as big a sin as an open position on the subject, but on a subject as contentious as this one has been, it is also golden.

 

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  • Louis E.

    As a non-religious Democrat who is very much AGAINST same-sex marriage,it’s depressing to see the Ghastly Other Party not manage to even stick to something that it happens to be right on,in the twice-a-day manner of a stopped clock!

    • Jack B Nimble

      It can never be “right” to withhold equal treatment under the law to all Americans, regardless of what you or I may think.

      • Louis E.

        It can never be right to treat “equal treatment under the law to all Americans” as meaning that those who refuse to qualify for a license must receive it anyway.

    • jjgrandisland

      And your justification for being against SSM? This one has to be a doozey!

      • Louis E.

        It’s not as if there were any rational argument FOR SSM!

        There is a public need to recognize the particular importance of opposite-sex relationships as such,and marriage exists to implement that recognition.Take away the requirement of opposite-sex partners and you remove the sole socially useful purpose of marriage.
        (The reproductive intent or capacity of any particular opposite-sex relationship is a private matter,but the partners being of opposite sexes is a public matter).

        • rakihi

          I noticed that you never actually articulate just what exactly that “public need to recognize the particular importance of opposite-sex couples” is.

          • Louis E.

            No,I simply state the basic fact without unnecessary expansion on it.

            The false dichotomy between the two irrational extremes requiring sex to be reproductive and permitting it to involve same-sex partners needs to be unconditionally discarded.

          • rakihi

            Okay, so you’ve conceded the fact that reproduction is not necessary for marriage but still haven’t explained why gay couples should be denied their right to marry.

          • Louis E.

            No one can have a right to have something that fails to unite male to female recognized as a marriage.Refusing to qualify for a license,for whatever reason,means you’re not entitled to it.

          • rakihi

            Surely a better argument is needed to support your position than something along the lines of “Marriage is between a man and a woman because marriage is between a man and a woman.”

          • Louis E.

            No,the principle is quite clear that the only reason to have an institution of civil marriage is to implement the compelling state interest in securing preferential treatment to the uniquely important practice of opposite-sex relationships.

          • rakihi

            So you’re arguing that heterosexuals are entitled to special rights, but never explain why.

          • Louis E.

            No,I am arguing that opposite-sex relationships are particularly important for reasons that need no explanation,and that preference not to qualify for a license does not entitle anyone to a license.

          • rakihi

            Now I’m starting to think you’re being facetious in your posts.

            I’ve debated a lot of people who have said they oppose Marriage Equality, but never one who simply asserted that the correctness of his position was self-evident and that he therefore did not need to provide any evidence or argument to support it.

          • Louis E.

            Being deliberately obtuse about their own self-evident lunacy is stock in trade for supporters of the outrage that only its supporters call “marriage equality”.There are very,VERY good reasons that the uniting of male to female has been the core constant of marriage for thousands of years,and none at all for it to ever be considered optional.

          • rakihi

            Why can’t you defend your contention that heterosexuals are entitled to special rights? I find it very curious.

          • Louis E.

            I keep making clear to you that the disingenuous contention that “heterosexuals are entitled to special rights” is nonsense.The point is that opposite-sex relationships are uniquely deserving of recognition and benefits.A standard of conduct applies equally to everyone,not just those not inclined to violate it in the first place,and is not “bigotry” or “discrimination” against would-be violators.If you don’t care to engage in actions that the public interest requires be guaranteed preferential treatment,that’s your business,but you don’t get licenses you refuse to qualify for.

          • As to the argument that marriage must only be for procreation or that gay marriage bans assist in procreation or public interest, it’s been shredded over and over for the ridiculous claim it is. Gay people marrying gay people do not stop heterosexuals from marrying or procreating. Here’s just ‘one’ out of many multiple similar court rulings striking down a gay marriage ban:

            “These arguments (from supporters of gay marriage bans) are not those of serious people. Though it seems almost unnecessary to explain, here are the reasons why.”

            “Even assuming the state has a legitimate interest in promoting procreation, the court fails to see, and defendant never explains, how the exclusion of same-sex couples from marriage has any effect whatsoever on procreation among heterosexual spouses. Excluding same-sex couples from marriage does not change the number of heterosexual couples who choose to get married, the number who choose to have children, or the number of children they have.”

            “The state’s attempts to connect the exclusion of same-sex couples from marriage to its interest in economic stability and in ‘ensuring humanity’s continued existence’ are at best illogical and even bewildering … The court can think of no other conceivable legitimate reason for Kentucky’s laws excluding same-sex couples from marriage.”

            “As this Court has respectfully explained, in America even sincere and long-held religious views do not trump the constitutional rights of those who happen to have been out voted.”

          • Louis E.

            I urge you to instead read the much better reasoned dissents from such decisions,rather than the quoted evidence of some judge’s deserving impeachment for mental incompetence.(Note that Loving vs. Virginia explicitly rested on precedents that required marriage to be opposite-sex).Procreation is best viewed as a secondary consequence,a private matter left to take care of itself within the much more important context of the public necessity to favor opposite-sex relationships.

          • I have, and the few dissenting opinions smack of incompetence, and ingrained ignorance on the subject. There have been over 42 rulings in favor. Again, you clearly are in the wrong Party.

          • Louis E.

            The ignorance and incompetence is entirely on your side of the issue.
            For example,Vaughn “move the strike zone” Walker disregarded standing case law that required him to dismiss the complaint against Prop 8,stipulated as “fact” things that either weren’t or were irrelevant,and made a ruling upheld on grounds entirely different from his,which was upheld further only because state officials had impeachably taken a dive.

            I support abortion on demand and expanded national health insurance,I oppose capital punishment,demand strict gun control.

            There’s no place for me in the Ghastly Other Party,and no place in logic for a claim that human society should treat same-sex sexual relationships as if they were of no lesser importance than opposite-sex relationships.

          • Then, I can only conclude that you have some serious mental issues with your prejudice against gay people and their constitutional and human right to marry.

          • Then, I can only conclude that you have some serious mental issues with your prejudice against gay people and their constitutional and human right to marry.

          • Brad F

            Effeminate dork, who cares what you think, you’re not even a man.

          • :-)!! Right back at ‘ya, dork.

          • Louis E.

            …because not to come to that ridiculous conclusion would be to admit the wholly fallacious nature of the premises on which you base it.

            It is in fact entirely in the best interests of “gay people” to come to the realization that their homosexuality is a disorder they have no excuse to allow to influence their behavior,and by which they should neither define themselves or allow others to define them.And it is not in the interest of humanity for an institution of civil marriage to exist unless it requires partners of both sexes.The right to marry must be understood as unconditionally limited by the requirement that marriage unite male to female,with no importance whatsoever conceded to any person’s self-identification as “gay”.

          • rakihi

            “The point is that opposite-sex relationships are uniquely deserving of recognition and benefits.”

            You’ve already told me in your earlier posts that you think heterosexuals are entitled to special rights. You don’t need to keep on repeating it ad nauseum, especially since you can offer no reason for it.

          • Louis E.

            No.I have made very clear that it is nonsense to call this an issue of heterosexuals having special rights.Everyone has the same rights and the same responsibilities.A standard of conduct does not confer “special rights” on those who abide by it.

          • rakihi

            Saying that equality exists because everyone, gay and heterosexual, is free to enter into opposite-sex relationships is like claiming that religious freedom for Jews exists in Iran because everyone, Muslim or Jewish, is free to worship Allah.

            So yes, you are in fact arguing that heterosexuals are entitled to special rights.

          • Louis E.

            Except freedom of religious belief is far more legitimate than ostensible freedom of conduct regardless of its rationality.
            There is no equality of rationality between recognizing that sexes exist for each other and pretending that they do not.

          • rakihi

            You missed the point of my Iran example.

            In any case, there is no equality of rationality between recognizing that gay people exist and pretending that they do not.

          • Louis E.

            There is no rationality in pretending that either homosexual orientation or anything else can ever excuse same-sex sexual activity.That sexual dimorphism evolves in a species determines that all sexual relationships in that species ought to be opposite-sex and that all failures to adhere to that norm should be deplored.

          • rakihi

            It’s ironic that for someone who claims to be non-religious, you sure cling to your opinions as though they were articles of faith, and have no need for evidence or proof.

          • Louis E.

            I believe there are clear facts that it is foolish to regard as debatable.

          • rakihi

            It is your unsupported opinions that we are debating.

          • Louis E.

            You are treating facts you find inconvenient as unsupported opinions.

          • rakihi

            I will be more than happy to address facts when and if you ever present any.

            So far, however, all you have offered is unsupported opinions, like your insistence that opposite-sex couples are entitled to specials rights simply because they are an opposite-sex couple, or your clear antipathy towards gays and lesbians.

          • Louis E.

            My antipathy is not toward persons,but toward defense of same-sex sexual activity by anyone of any sexual orientation.
            That humanity needs there to be opposite-sex couples,but not same-sex couples,is not an unsupported opinion,but a fact so screamingly obvious that anyone who treats it as open to reasonable doubt is positively insane.

          • rakihi

            Did you really think I’d be fooled by the straw man you’ve set up? I’m well aware of the basics of human reproduction but as a matter of logic, that neither explains nor justifies your antipathy towards gays and lesbians.

          • Louis E.

            You’re the one with the straw man.You cling hysterically to the pretense that “stop doing that” means “I hate you”,because you want to dismiss responsibility for one’s actions.There is no more “antipathy for gays and lesbians” in my stand than there is hatred for the blind in denying them drivers’ licenses.

          • rakihi

            Happy Halloween

        • jjgrandisland

          I hear why you want to allow opposite sex couples to marry. But my question was about same sex couples and their families. Are they less important? Do they deserve to be held in a second class status all the while paying for you, your spouse and your spawn?

          • Louis E.

            OF COURSE same-sex “families” are less important to humanity than actual,opposite-sex-based families…just look at the facts.Which can humanity survive without?

          • jjgrandisland

            I cannot believe you just said this. Particularly when gays and lesbians regularly adopt heterosexual toss aways. You should just be ashamed of yourself.

          • Louis E.

            No,those who form,and refuse to break up,same-sex couples should be ashamed of themselves.As should anyone who pretends that humanity as a whole has as much need for there to be even a single same-sex couple as it does for there to be opposite-sex relationships.

          • jjgrandisland

            You continue to dig yourself deeper into your hole. You really think leaders in this great country would force a couple to break up and nullify their relationship? Good luck with that. You may have a few crazies that get into office but the majority understand how our country really works and the protections that are afforded to all citizens. Unless you are advocating to tear up the US Constitution and Bill of Rights you do not have a chance in hell.

          • Louis E.

            I really think that anyone in a same-sex couple is better off out of it…think of the relationships as akin to those between alcoholics and their liquor bottles.The only protection that homosexuals are entitled to specifically relating to their homosexuality is protection FROM it,not protection OF it…unfortunately crazies in office get this backward.
            The Constitution has been misinterpreted,but that can be corrected.

          • jjgrandisland

            You didn’t just compare gays and lesbians to alcoholics did you? You just keep thinking that gays and lesbians do not deserve the same civil rights granted to people like you. All I can say is you are going to be living a very unhappy life. And for the record I would be very careful when you say something like this. You never know when one is standing right behind you.

          • Louis E.

            You keep thinking there’s an issue of “the same civil rights” here when there isn’t.Getting drunk is a bad habit for everyone including alcoholics,same-sex sex is a bad habit for everyone including “gays and lesbians”.

          • jjgrandisland

            Oh…now you have clearly exposed yourself. Your opinion is that same sex relationships is a bad habit. No…a bad habit is getting drunk, getting each other pregnant…deciding to marry in front of an Elvis impersonator. Then fight, break up and abandon your spawn. Now that is a bad habit. I would suggest you focus on those issues instead of chasing this red herring.

          • Brad F

            Dorky old queen, you are a sick joke. You are one bored pathetic loser.

          • jjgrandisland

            Thank you again for exposing what a real T-O-O-L you are . I am no longer afraid of you nor “public” opinion on this topic. You are nothing but a scared little boy who cannot properly function in todays society. I just recommend you be very careful as I might just be standing right behind you when you decide to misbehave. You might not like getting “cold-cocked” when you least expect it.

          • Louis E.

            So long as people continue to defend same-sex sexual relationships,those defenses must be corrected until they are abandoned.

          • jjgrandisland

            So long as people continue to debase tax paying, law abiding citizens, those defenses must be corrected until they are abandoned.

          • Louis E.

            So long as people defy correction of their demands for public acceptance of their misbehavior,they must be scolded out of their self-righteousness.

          • jjgrandisland

            But you are equating same sex relationship as a “correction” and a “misbehaviror”. You are either relying on our inner “ick” factor or your religious convictions. Both of which condemn your position. You have to stop this nonsense.

          • Louis E.

            I am correctly characterizing same-sex sexual activity as a misbehavior and any attempt to defend such activity in need of correction.The “ick” factor we should all have toward such relationships is a good thing to be guided by,regardless of anyone’s beliefs as to the nature of the Infinitely First Cause or any books some groups allege it to have written.That we allow ourselves to be desensitized to the revulsion we should feel toward same-sex sex or the defense thereof is tragic.To defend such relationships is the nonsense that needs to stop.

          • jjgrandisland

            So your inner feelings should allow society to discriminate against these tax paying, law abiding citizens? Did you know many people had a similar “ick” feeling about people of color. The considered them 3/5’s of human. We all knew that was wrong. Someday you will learn the same thing on this topic. Or at least your grandchildren will.

          • Louis E.

            Color is in no way about deliberately doing something stupid.This is about nothing but deliberately doing something stupid.We have an obligation to “discriminate against” stupid behavior.

          • jjgrandisland

            So you are calling gays and lesbians stupid? Who anointed you hall monitor? And for the record these are valuable people in our community who most likely contribute more than you do. And remember what I said earlier. You have freedom of religion but you have turned it into the freedom to evangelize upon others. Sounds like something ISIS likes to do.

          • Louis E.

            I am calling engaging in same-sex sexual activity,or defending anyone else’s ever doing so,stupid.All valuable things homosexuals contribute to society are DESPITE their homosexuality,which deserves no credit (and which it insults them to accord any importance).

          • jjgrandisland

            You just keep thinking that way. In a few generations your children and grandchildren will just be embarrassed knowing you spoke this way. You may want to ask the grandchildren of George Wallace how they are feeling about grandpa’s statements.

          • Louis E.

            I would hope they understand how false and ridiculous your analogies are.

          • jjgrandisland

            Sorry…Your descendants are going to be smarter, faster, and more enlightened than we. I just hope they do not laugh at you and think you were just a pathetic, old, curmudgeon who could not evolve and learn to respect your fellow tax paying, law abiding citizens. That would be disrespectful.

          • Louis E.

            Enlightenment requires negative attitudes toward same-sex sexual activity.

          • jjgrandisland

            You condemn yourself with your own words. Equating being gay or lesbian to “misbehaving” is just wrong. This is simple animus towards a minority.

          • Louis E.

            NO.
            Stop pretending “stop doing that” means “I hate you”.Pretending needed criticism of homosexual activity is hostility toward homosexual persons is like saying that arresting thieves is animosity toward kleptomaniacs.”Being gay or lesbian” is just a political identity,a self-righteous declaration that one identifies oneself with one’s weakness for the a priori indefensible practice of same-sex sexual activity.The “misbehaving” is actually engaging in sexual activity with a person of one’s own sex,and that’s equally wrong for all persons no matter how they identify.A standard of conduct applies equally to everyone,not just to those not minded to violate it in the first place,and is not “bigotry” against a class defined by sharing the desire to violate it.

          • jjgrandisland

            You think you have this all figured out. Well you don’t. You animosity is just dripping from every one of your writings. I think some counseling might be in order for you. You clearly have some huge issues on this subject. And for the record the most foolish thing you have said is that sexual orientation is just a “political identity”. I almost spit my coffee all over my computer screen.

          • Louis E.

            Sexual orientation isn’t a political identity,calling oneself “gay” rather than thinking of oneself as having a disorder is a political identity.It is those who disagree with me who need to overcome their delusions,unfortunately those who share your delusions have entirely destroyed the psychiatric profession’s credibility and willingness to offer needed assistance.

          • jjgrandisland

            No. You are wrong. This is not about sex. This is about chosing your mate and creating their family. You may not like it…just like you do not like two “boneheads” getting married on a weekend lark. But this is their choice…not yours and not under your foolish religious values. I love my gay and lesbian friends who chose to marry and create families…just like I love you and your family. So stop this nonsense and put your inner “ick” factor where it belongs….in the trash can.

          • Louis E.

            No,accept the need for the ick factor to be a consensus that guides public policy in this matter.

            The definition of family must always exclude same-sex chosen-pairings.Friends don’t let friends start or stay in such relationships…you say you “love” your “gay and lesbian friends”,but you hurt them by letting them believe they do no wrong in gratifying their same-sex sexual attraction.By telling them what they want to hear rather than the very opposite things they need to hear you are abandoning them and selling them out.

            I am not a religious person and this is not a religious issue.

          • jjgrandisland

            I am sorry. You are just wrong. Gay and lesbian couples are awesome people and they are raising wonderful children. I must admit their children have a much higher percentage of graduating high school an higher education along with learning to accept the differences in society than many heterosexual families. Maybe that is why GOD created these special people. So stop this nonsense. You are only looking crazier by the minute.

          • Louis E.

            Same-sex couples should never form,and any that do form should break up.It abuses children to be in their custody,and that those children grow up deluded into thinking same-sex sexual relationships to be unobjectionable conclusively proves that they have been abused.
            The craziness is the defense of such relationships.

          • jjgrandisland

            So you want to un-marry these couples? You want to deny their children a safe and loving home? Wow…I wonder where you find that in our scriptures?

          • Louis E.

            I consider the children in same-sex “homes” to be in need of rescue .I don’t believe that the Infinitely First Cause of existence has ever written a book or started an official fan club for itself.

          • jjgrandisland

            Then you clearly do not know any. These children are doing much better than you think. Take a look how great some opposite sex partnered households are doing. If you want to rescue someone I would suggest you start there. Instead of pounding on the gay and lesbian families maybe you should be worrying about children left in hot cars, children being abandoned by their parents…or worse yet children which are physically and sexually abused. All you are doing here is just being cruel.

          • jjgrandisland

            You have to stop evangelizing your faith upon others. I suggest you spend a bit more time keeping your eyes on your own paper. No one is asking or seeking your approval. And to actively work against these people finding peace in this world and in the next is simply not what GOD wants from us.

          • Louis E.

            I’m not religious and never have been.That they demand that their relationships be recognized as marriages is seeking approval they must be denied.

          • jjgrandisland

            Sorry Louis….society is saying differently. You can rant and rave all you want but this will be the law of the land very shortly. I urge you to not let you head explode over this. Do us a favor and go out and do something valuable for the community instead of trying to tear it down.

          • Louis E.

            Overturning any “law of the land” that treats same-sex sexual relationships as unobjectionable is doing something valuable for the community.Now why don’t you become part of that solution instead of proudly being part of the problem?

          • jjgrandisland

            I am part of the solution and it is happening right now. I think 32 states now permit SSM. 3 states are dragging their heels but will soon bring the number to 35. That means only 15 are left. Then the problem will be solved. The world will go on. And you can just work on getting used to it. But don’t worry…I will always protect your right to not marry another dude.

          • Louis E.

            No…SSM is the problem,a universal consensus that excuses for same-sex sexual relationships can never exist is the solution.

          • jjgrandisland

            But it is my friend. You just are hanging on to old biases and cruel discrimination which have been established for centuries. I hope you did not fight this hard when women actually became our equals and blacks were no longer allowed to be owned. Or did you?

          • Louis E.

            You want to label wisdom as cruelty and discrimination because you swallow the outrageous self-righteousness of deliberate wrongdoers.
            Again…women and blacks simply are such.Homosexuals who don’t pretend their inclination toward same-sex sex makes such behavior excusable should incur no penalty,it’s when they deliberately defy rules against it that they justly incur penalties.

          • jjgrandisland

            The fact that you believe you speak “wisdom” certainly indicates how full of yourself you really are. All you are doing is continuing to spew religious dogma written by a few men more than 2000 years ago. And for the record it is very, very, very few writings which have been translated so many times, then edited, redacted, and eventually printed by an English King of dubious reputation with men. So how do you explain that one?

          • Louis E.

            I have never believed in the divine authorship of any religion’s putatively sacred text.And no one is more “full of themselves” than the homosexual activists who think the world’s highest moral authorities are their hormones.

          • jjgrandisland

            No.. My highest moral authority is GOD. As for the words of some of the foolish men who thought they could speak for him…is another story. And can you really define what is a homosexual activist? These are not activists. They are tax paying, law abiding citizens that are just tired of being your punching bag.

          • Louis E.

            Anyone who is both prone to and demands societal acceptance of same-sex sexual relationships is a homosexual activist in this context.
            Tax paying and law abiding in other areas doesn’t excuse this sociopathic vice.

          • jjgrandisland

            Now you are equating gays and lesbians to sociopaths? You are very disturbed individual.

          • Louis E.

            I am recognizing that the practice of same-sex sexual activity damages the fabric of human society.The unapologetically “gay and lesbian” are indeed very disturbed individuals.

          • jjgrandisland

            It damages it how? Are you afraid all heterosexuals are going to now turn gay or lesbian? I think not.

          • Louis E.

            It defies and violates the idea of all sexual relationships being opposite-sex,which is determined equally for all of us by the fact that the species has two sexes.

          • jjgrandisland

            Not the idea of ALL sexual relationships. Gays and lesbians have been having sex since time immortal. It just seems like your puritanical tyranny has pushed it into the shadows. Well your grip on this injustice is slipping through your fingers. I think GOD works in wonderful ways as he helps right this wrong.

          • Louis E.

            The ideal is that ALL sexual relationships be opposite-sex.It is justice,not injustice,to apply the ideal EQUALLY to EVERYONE with no regard for anyone’s selfish self-identification as “gay or lesbian”.Wrongdoers see correction as oppressive,but it is deserved and must never end.

          • jjgrandisland

            For you the ideal relationship maybe for opposite sexes to be together. But for gays and lesbians it is not. And to debase their relationships is just wrong.

          • Louis E.

            On the contrary,for them to refuse to admit that their relationships are of a type less important to humanity than opposite-sex ones is what is wrong…self-righteous,arrogant,and foolish.It would be like me whining that the restriction on my driver’s license that requires me to have my objectively inferior vision corrected to the only kind that anyone SHOULD have was an attack on my “equal right” to “see differently” and that I was entitled to separate roads with large-type signs.The opposite-sex relationship is THE ideal sexual relationship for any sexually dimorphic species,regardless of any individual’s failure to adhere to that norm for any reason.

          • jjgrandisland

            I am glad you believe that opposite-sex couples are some how superior to gays and lesbians. But that is only your opinion. As Justice Kennedy clearly stated in the Windsor ruling these families and more importantly their children are equal to and deserve the same rights and respect awarded to opposite sex families. That is how our country works. You may not like it but you are just going to have to live with it.

          • Louis E.

            Kennedy was clearly wrong to defend the outrageous practice of forming or maintaining same-sex couples as entitled to any legal protection whatsoever.And to claim they deserve EQUAL protection is so sociopathic as to defy belief.

          • jjgrandisland

            You mean Justice Kennedy and four other justices. Yes that is what due process and equal protection are about. And while you are at it what about the religious freedoms of gays and lesbians to enter into holy matrimony? Or you suggesting the USA should follow Egypt and convict gays and lesbians and give them prison time.?

          • Louis E.

            No,not in their nightmares did the authors of the 14th Amendment imagine that it would be abused in the fashion it has been abused by Kennedy.Equal protection of persons does NOT mean official treatment of all personal choices as equally wise,or persons who refuse to qualify for a license being treated as equally entitled to that license with those who do qualify.Religions are free to call anything a marriage,but civil legal recognition must serve a public purpose,and without a requirement of opposite-sex partners the institution is better off abolished.

          • jjgrandisland

            First you are calling homosexuality a personal choice. Mistake number one. Second if the authors of the 14th only wanted the due process and equal protection to only protect blacks they would have put it in the document. But they did not. They made sure it pertained to all minorities in this country. And you are finding that it includes gays and lesbians. Sorry to burst your bubble.

          • Louis E.

            Engaging in same-sex sexual activity IS ALWAYS a choice,an automatically wrong choice that homosexual orientation (chosen or not) can never excuse.Laws against stealing are not a “kleptomaniacs’ rights” issue no matter how deep-seated the condition.We can NOT treat claims of minority rights based on behaviors as legitimate and hold our government together.Time to burst the “gay and lesbian” bubble.

          • jjgrandisland

            Yes but stealing is hurting another human being. Being gay or lesbian and loving and living in a committed relationship is not. To equate these things is just simply animus. You need to stop this. And the bubble that is being burst is yours. You and your “fire and brimstone” friends time is over. The world is changing my friend. And for the better, contrary to what your internet “bobbleheads” are telling you.

          • Louis E.

            Those who commit to a sexual relationship with anyone opf the same sex are thereby hurting each other.And any increase in acceptance of their doing so is a change for the worse.

          • jjgrandisland

            Then there are one heck of a lot of people out there who are “hurting” each other. Now if you want to see hurt…how about all the women that get beat up each weekend? Or how about the child that has been abandoned, abused or ignored by their “so called” parents. Now that is the true definition of “hurting”. I suggest you focus on these problems instead of trying to debase gays, lesbians, and their families.

          • Louis E.

            I can only be free to focus on this when the “gays” admit they do wrong by attempting to evade censure for their relationships.

          • jjgrandisland

            I think you have a long wait my friend. Gays and lesbians are good citizens and are finally being recognized by broader society as being such. People like you may feel like you are protecting society but unfortunately it turns out you have been the one causing all the problems. I know that it must hurt to learn it but don’t worry, the pain will go away someday.

          • Louis E.

            People are being fooled into believing same-sex sexual relationships can deserve acceptance,and this is a problem.The pain goes away when the “gays” apologize and slink back to their closets.

          • jjgrandisland

            I think the pain is going to go away when a the remaining religious zealots crawl back under their rocks. Then society will become a much more peaceful place.

          • Louis E.

            As long as the overwhelming secular intellectual case against same-sex sexual activity stops being questioned,I couldn’t care less about what happens to religious zealots,I’ve never been religious.

          • jjgrandisland

            Secularly intelligence is what is making this conversation so interesting. Society is realizing they have been wrong on the topic of the lives of gays and lesbians. They are admitting they were wrong and are now in the process of making it right. But unfortunately, there will always be hold outs like you.

          • Susan

            Louis E. is right although he is not religious many of us are. This is perverted behavior. However, I do not hate people who call themselves gay I feel very sorry for them. The reason they first used the term “gay” is really because it is so sad.

          • Susan

            Oh, by the way, probably won’t surprise you but I’m a Republican. Not sure why the article thinks we are silent. Maybe we’ve been a little distracted with all that is happening in the world, but when we start being forced by all these “law abiding” citizens to preform certain things it isn’t going to be pretty. Already there are cases of religious people being either forced to perform services that are against their core beliefs or be fined, go to jail or both. And you will not be able to silence those with real conviction speaking from the nations pulpits because many will speak the truth in love even if it means certain scarfices no matter what the law says.

          • jjgrandisland

            And I feel sorry for you that you feel justified to use words like “perverted” and your ability to demean people by telling then that you feel sorry for them and insinuating they are “sad”. You must be a very dark individual. If you say you are a religious person then you know you will be dealt with in the next world. Good luck to you. You are going to need it.

          • Louis E.

            Again you put right and wrong backwards.False excuses for homosexual activity have been fooling increasing numbers of people,and this has to stop.But unfortunately there will always be holdouts like you.

          • jjgrandisland

            No…I am putting right what had been a wrong. Just like when people said the earth was flat. I am always going to be the holdout for truth and justice for all people…and yes..that includes gays, lesbians, and their families.

          • Louis E.

            You refuse to uphold the truth (that homosexuality is a disorder and homosexual acts by nature a mistake) or justice (that those in homosexual relationships must be prohibited from legal recognition as “families).You are claiming right to be wrong.

          • jjgrandisland

            No. I think you are. I am upholding the truth that these are tax paying, law abiding citizens who love and create families. There is no denying this. Except when you look through your prejudicial glasses.

          • Louis E.

            On the contrary.Every time you say they “create families” by entering into the indefensible type of relationship for which they possess an irrelevant weakness,you lie.

          • jjgrandisland

            I am not lying. These are good people who adding great value to our society.

          • Louis E.

            But you lie when you say that they and their accomplices are “families”.

          • jjgrandisland

            You can call me many things but a liar I am not. I have witnessed the wonderfulness of these people and I am not going to change my position. Certainly not for someone like you. These are great people and deserve the same amount of respect as you and I.

          • Louis E.

            They deserve enough respect to stop pretending they are the helpless slaves of their homosexuality and just need help realizing they need to overcome rather than indulge it.

          • jjgrandisland

            Oh…you are such a strong willed person. I want to see you shut off your heterosexuality. The brain is not wired to do that.

          • Louis E.

            We are all born celibate,can only depart from that status by deliberate effort,and should only do so for sufficient reason,wich opposite-sex attraction may or may not be,but same-sex attraction definitively can not be regardless of any contrary opinion.

          • jjgrandisland

            You are a funny man.

          • jjgrandisland

            Sorry. You do not get to determine what is right or wrong. That is what each persons faith has the privilege to do. Gays and lesbians are not going to admit to something to make you feel better. I urge you to step back and ask what Jesus would do in this situation. You know what he would say so just admit it and make your life much easier. And again, I promise you will never have to marry a dude.

          • Louis E.

            Jesus was a pretty smart guy but he wasn’t what Christians pretend he was.And neither is homosexuality what you wish it was.

          • jjgrandisland

            I know. His name as been twisted many times to fit the needs of certain individuals. But I do not worry. In the end..it will all be taken care of. As of homosexuality being right…well that is also something that will all be figured out in the end. And those who chose to debase their fellow citizens…well they too will get their just rewards.

          • Louis E.

            That homosexuality is a flaw and homosexual activity an error was settled for all time the first day a species involved two sexes.

          • jjgrandisland

            It could not have been solved or we would still not have gays and lesbians and we would not be having this conversation. Next hypothesis?

          • Louis E.

            The facts were established,I didn’t say that all people admitted to them.

          • jjgrandisland

            If they were so established then why do gays and lesbians represent 2-4% of the population?

          • Louis E.

            Because humans aren’t perfect…did you think we were?

          • jjgrandisland

            No I do not. But gays and lesbians are being created every day. There must be a plan for them.

          • Louis E.

            So you think all defects are products of deliberate planning?

          • jjgrandisland

            Actually, yes I do. And to call these people defects speak so much more about you and than about them.

          • Louis E.

            I’m not calling people defects,I’m calling their defects defects.

          • jjgrandisland

            And the difference being? You are just being your cruel old self.

          • Louis E.

            Nothing cruel about recognizing imperfections.Are you thinking it cruel to the deaf to observe that they can’t hear music?

          • jjgrandisland

            No. But it is cruel to call them derogatory names and deny them acceptance and benefits generally awarded in a society.

          • Louis E.

            Their offensive demand for entirely undeserved acceptance of their wrongdoing is an entirely different issue from their unfortunate weakness for that wrongdoing.It HELPS them to be steered away from gratifying their unhealthy desires,even if they feel bad about it and hurl false charges of hate against those giving them the correction they need instead of the validation they want.

          • jjgrandisland

            Then why have there been gays and lesbians from the beginning of time?

          • Louis E.

            The “gay and lesbian” concept/identity was invented rather recently…as for same-sex sexual attraction,that’s just one of the many imperfections humans may have,like my own nearsightedness and hearing impairment.

          • jjgrandisland

            No. The words have been created but the lives of these people have been around since time immortal. Unfortunately, the inner “ick” factor of some people and the ever desirous religious zealots have made the “imperfections” of these people the butt of their animosity. Pretty sad huh? Good thing these people didn’t go after people with nearsightedness or the hearing impaired. Although the RCC did go after lefthanders for a while. I hope you are not left handed. Because then you might know what it feels like to picked upon and called “the devil”.

          • Louis E.

            The dishonest attitude that the desire for same-sex sexual activity can excuse gratifying it rather than admitting that being same-sex automatically determines it to be wrong (“ick” factors can be based on reason) has been packaged under new labels.But the wrongness is eternal.As is that of your obsession with confusing being with doing.

          • jjgrandisland

            I am confusing nothing. I speak with clarity, fairness and the love for my fellow men and women. You on other hand just wish to tear them apart and debase them. I am so glad you are only an internet contact. If we met in person I would spit at your feet.

          • Louis E.

            “Friends don’t let friends…”
            You’re not being a true friend if you tell them the positive but false things they want to hear about their homosexuality instead of the negative and true things they need to hear about it.You’re just copping out and taking the easy path.YOU are the one debasing them.

          • jjgrandisland

            Louis, I think you need to mind your business. These people are not telling you how to live yours. Where you seem to get your justification I simply do not know. I fear you just have a miserable life and you try to make yourself feel better by tearing others down. I think gays and lesbians is just your flavor of the month.

          • jjgrandisland

            Oh…so two gays or lesbians getting married somehow hurts your elite status? If that is the case your marriage must not be very strong. Maybe you want to spend some time working on that this weekend.

          • Louis E.

            I’m not married.What’s hurt is the entire social fabric.

          • jjgrandisland

            It is not hurting the entire social fabric. It is now legal in 35 states. The sky is not falling. But I will tell you heterosexuals need to get their act together. 50% divorce rate? I suggest you focus on this. BTW…were you ever married?

          • Louis E.

            Wherever it is legal,its being legal harms the social fabric.Its existence CONSTITUTES a “fallen sky”.

          • jjgrandisland

            Oh..there is that Chicken Little coming out again. If you want to “save” the fabric of society I think you might want to focus on the divorce and child abandonment rates. You are chasing a red herring created by a few religious zealots.

          • Louis E.

            Religion has nothing to do with it.That not everyone succeeds at doing it right doesn’t excuse doing it wrong.

          • jjgrandisland

            50% of heterosexuals seem to be doing it wrong. And look at the carnage they leave in their wake. As I said…why don’t you focus on the children of heterosexual families.

          • Louis E.

            Because the very concept of family is under attack by those unconscionably demanding that same-sex couples be considered families.

          • jjgrandisland

            Oh..I see. Now the gays and lesbians are to blame for heterosexuals getting married, divorced and abandoning their children. What’s next EBOLA? Do you not see what you are doing? Demonizing a minority and blame them for all of societies ills? Sounds like something Herr Goebbels did very effectively.

          • Louis E.

            I’m demonizing behaviors that deserve censure.The Goebbels tactics are what has given us same-sex marriage,repeating the “big lie” that attacking behaviors is an attack on those prone to those behaviors.

          • jjgrandisland

            No. You are discriminating against tax paying, faithful Americans who have been beaten up for centuries. The Goebbels tactic was to demonize a group so a to justify cruel and abominable actions. But you are welcome to continue to try but just remember…one day I might be standing right next to you when you are demonizing me. And I promise you that you will not like what happens next.

          • Louis E.

            No,you are the one following the Goebbels line,demonizing critics of same-sex sexual activity as cruel and abominable bigots/haters/etc by spreading the big lie that the necessary condemnation of same-sex sexual activity is driven by animosity toward those prone to that error.
            Bigots are the ones who claim target groups can’t change their behavior,that it is in their nature to do wrong things (that jews are by nature usurers,or Irish by nature drunkards,or Gypsies by nature thieves).I insist that homosexuals are NOT helpless slaves of their hormones and CAN realize and admit that the innate wrongness of same-sex sex is more important than anyone’s taste for it.

          • jjgrandisland

            Louis, Louis, Louis..I am only judging you by your words. I have not called you a bigot nor a hater. What I am telling you is you need to stop demonizing gays and lesbians with your condemnation of their lives. And notice I am not using the term lifestyle. You may not agree with their families but that does not give you the right to publically debase them. When you do then you just may deserve being called those descriptions. And your comment of “wrongness” just proves what I have been saying.

          • Louis E.

            You say that I “demonize” but that that’s not being a bigot or a hater?
            And it is essential to condemn both same-sex sexual relationships and the defense thereof by anyone of any sexual orientation.That you claim there is no right to criticize this repugnant practice (when it is a responsibility incumbent on anyone exposed to it) shows you believe in freedom only for the “pro-gay”.

          • jjgrandisland

            You are the one condemning gays and lesbians. Your own writings say they are “bad” and “repugnant”. I would not actually say you are following a “love thy neighbor” tenet. Are you? You may have a freedom to say as you wish but I don’t have to believe as you. That is why America is so great. Unfortunately, your list of conversationalists is diminishing every day.

          • Louis E.

            THE PRACTICE OF ENGAGING IN SAME-SEX SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS is repugnant.Stop pretending “stop doing that” means “I hate you”.I have much more confidence in the ability of “gays and lesbians” to recognize their same-sex sexual attraction as the disorder the existence of two sexes in the species determines it to be than you do.It is a case of “friends don’t let friends”,and you do not “love they neighbor” by telling him the lies he wants to hear rather than the opposite truths he needs to hear.Even if the former path is the easy one and the latter upsets him.

          • jjgrandisland

            Your use of the term repugnant is a perfect example of why Justice Kennedy used the word “animus” in the Windsor ruling.
            And you are equating gays and lesbians to lying? Actually, these people are not lying. They are telling the truth about who they are. As for you my friend I think you need to stop evangelizing and keep your eyes on your paper.

          • Louis E.

            And again you CONSTANTLY contrive to pretend that attacking PRACTICES is attacking PERSONS.

            Which it ISN’T.

            And no,their weakness for a bad habit is NOT “who they are”.They are much more than that,and better than that…even if they don’t give themselves credit.

          • jjgrandisland

            Louis..but you are minimizing these people lives to a simple bad habit. It is not a habit. It is their lives. They live and breathe their love, their lives, and their family just like you do. And these people give themselves lots of credit. And one their biggest credit is their honestly and ability to step into the light and take a seat at our banquet table. So please stop trying to debase these people and their lives.

          • Louis E.

            No,YOU are the one minimizing their lives to that bad habit.You pretend that identifying that bad habit as the bad habit it is devalues their entire lives.They need to stop tying their self-worth to what is frankly one of the worst,but least important,things about them.Stop trying to value these people’s lives by the value others attach to their bad habits.

          • jjgrandisland

            Sorry. I know to many of these great and talented people who are greatly adding to our society, have solid relationships, and are raising beautiful children. I would never try and demean these people, particularly by defining them as “bad habits”. You sir have a very negative outlook. But I guess you already knew that.

          • Louis E.

            I (or more accurately the nature of our species) define the RELATIONSHIPS,not the people,as bad habits.

            and all the adding to society great or talented homosexuals do is DESPITE those relationships those in them need to end and all people need to stop defending.

          • jjgrandisland

            How do you know that nature has created gays and lesbians to possibly care for all the children which have been tossed away by their parents? Or should these children just curl up and die in some orphanage? Or worse yet on the street?

          • jjgrandisland

            They are not defining their life by being gay any more than you define your life as heterosexual. It is a part but a very important part. These are loving couples who have families, maybe not like “your ideal” but they are families.

          • Louis E.

            No,they are NOT families,calling them families indicates you can’t tell a biological entity from a voluntary association.

          • jjgrandisland

            Do you tell the biology of every family you come across. What about second, third, and fourth marriages that unites children? Do you run a DNA test before you call them a family? You many gays and lesbians are genetically linked parents. So what is the difference?

          • jjgrandisland

            I cannot grasp the depth of your cruelty. These are families. Some are biologically connect and some are not. Are you this evil to families which adopt children? If you do get ready for a fight. My sister has three beautiful children from Russia and the Ukraine. They are a family. They work, pay taxes, take their children to school, just like my gay friends do. There is no difference. You, sir are a very evil human being.

    • You really shouldn’t be part of the Democratic Party then.. Thankfully the ‘Southern Democrats’ defected en masse to the GOP back in the mid to late 60’s when the majority of us supported equality for black people and interracial couples.. We’re doing the same for gay citizens now. Apparently you missed the bandwagon.

      • Louis E.

        I identified that bandwagon as headed in the wrong direction based on false analogies,and urge everyone who indefensibly got on it to jump off…the Democrats are my party,when right to be kept right and when wrong to be put right.Equality of persons does not involve treating their personal choices as of equal wisdom.Racial restrictions on marriage are wrong for the same reason allowing same-sex marriage is wrong…both interfere with the basic function of marriage,to unite male to female.

        • A gay person marrying another gay person doesn’t stop heterosexual people from procreating or marrying. Your premise is completely baseless. That said, I just included some history for you in the newest comment at the top of the page.

          • Louis E.

            Persons who are not of opposite sexes marrying each other defeats the public purpose of allowing such a thing as marriage to exist.It is your premises that are baseless.

          • Go tell that to the 17 nations and 33 states, plus the District of Columbia, who have legalized same-sex marriage. Oh, and just as an example, Massachusetts, which has enjoyed marriage equality for a decade now, used to have a high rate of divorce. Thanks to marriage equality, it now has the lowest divorce rate in the Nation. You lack basic common sense and knowledge, beyond the ability to reason.

          • Louis E.

            Few of those states legalized same-sex marriage,they were generally subjected to court rulings imposing it on them.The permanent abolition of the outrage only its supporters call “marriage equality” is in the best interests of the nation,and common sense,knowledge,and reason all point clearly to the exclusive correctness of that position.
            (If low divorce rates were a barometer of the health of marriage,surely abolishing divorce would be the answer).

          • Louis, have you ever stopped to smell the sometimes proverbial roses for a nano-second at least, and then become slightly and dimly aware… of just how much stepping out of your false outrage and anger, and into a depth of ‘true’ good.. an energetic, power-flushing, anal/mind/soul cleansing would do you, man? At least, just consider the possibility.

          • Louis E.

            Again you mischaracterize my motives and position to make yourself feel better.My anger is directed,without regard to anyone’s sexual orientation,at all defense of same-sex sexual activity.Most people who mistakenly believe such activity to be unobjectionable are not homosexual.And it is not I who is trapped in evil.You really need to get out of your own hormonal haze.

  • For those with any historical interest, and especially to the ones who claim that accepting homosexuality or gay people being able to marry each other will bring about the downfall of civilization.. I’d like to make a point that Greek culture, the birthplace of our own civilization, flourished for over 1,300 years. I’m not talking about the rise or fall of a particular city state or federation, or after it was absorbed into the Roman Empire, in which it still flourished.. I’m talking about the culture itself. Our nation has only been around for 238 years. Homosexuality was a large part of that civilization, and not considered ‘perverted’. I’m not advocating pederasty either; I’m simply showing that accepting homosexual people as equal citizens, and the person they wish to love and possibly marry, does not destroy a civilization.

    In the Symposium, Plato argues for an army to be comprised of same-sex lovers. Thebes did indeed form such a regiment, the Sacred Band of Thebes, consisting of 300 paired soldiers. They were renowned in the ancient world for their valor in battle. Greece importantly influenced Western knowledge in many ways. Homosexuality was a major part of Greek culture, and yet the ancient Greeks especially contributed many things to the world, from science, to medicine, to advanced architecture, to advanced mathematics, to advanced military tactics, and to astronomy. Ancient Greek philosophy focused on the role of reason and inquiry. It had an extremely important influence on modern philosophy. The art of ancient Greece also has exercised an enormous influence on the culture of many countries from ancient times until the present. If homosexuality were so detrimental to civilization, none of this would have been possible.

    It was not until the Roman world was forcibly converted, and succumbed to an unforgiving and dictatorship-like form of Christianity (completely unlike the earlier peaceful and loving form of Christianity), that we began to embark upon the Dark Ages. Christian emperors Theodosius and Arcadius on Aug 6, 390, under the advice of their bishops, issued the following edict.. an edict that would begin an evil persecution towards gay people that would last well over a thousand years: “All persons who have the shameful custom of condemning a man’s body, acting the part of a woman’s to the sufferance of alien sex (for they appear not to be different from women), shall expiate a crime of this kind by being burned to death in the public sight of the people.” -Codex Theodosius IX. Vii. 6

    Previously, on December 16, 342 AD, the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans, under advice from their bishops, had issued the following edict.. a law specifically outlawing marriages between men, and reads as follows:

    “When a man marries in the manner of a woman, a woman about to renounce men, what does he wish, when sex has lost its significance; when the crime is one which it is not profitable to know; when Venus is changed into another form; when love is sought and not found? We order the statutes to arise, the laws to be armed with an avenging sword, that those infamous persons who are now, or who hereafter may be guilty, shall be subjected to exquisite punishment.” (Theodosian Code 9.7.3)

    Enlightened nations and people now know it to be of the utmost evil to persecute gay people over how they are born, and who they wish to join in love and life with.

    The very foundation of Democracy itself, in the birthplace of Western Civilization itself.. was started by two males who were in love with each other.

    The association of homosexuals with democracy and the military was intense and widespread, extending from Harmodius and Aristogeiton, a pair of lovers who founded Democracy by overthrowing the last tyrant of Athens, to the noted generals Pelopidas and Epanminondas, to the great military genius Alexander the Great and his male lover Hephaestion.

    Of Harmodius and Aristogeiton, no less acute a mind than Plato’s observed that: “Our own tyrants learned this lesson through bitter experience, when the love between Aristogiton and Harmodius grew so strong that it shattered their power. Wherever, therefore, it has been alluded to be shameful to be involved in sexual relationships with men, this is due to evil on the part of the rulers, and to cowardice in the part of the governed.”

    For hundreds of years, larger-than-life statues of these founders of Democracy towered above Athens, as impossible to disconnect with the city as the Statue of Liberty is impossible for us to disconnect with New York.. and young male lovers from England to Egypt, and across the entire Classical world would journey there to pledge their faith and love to each other, underneath those statues.

    Gorgidas, the leader of Thebes created the Sacred Band, composed of 300 men, who were all paired lovers. They were known as the ‘sacred band’ because as Plutarch later explained, “even Plato calls the lover a friend inspired of God.”

    Philip of Macedon and Plutarch recounted how the greatest heroes in the Greek’s own history were all known to prefer other males rather than women: Meleager, Achilles, Aristomenes, Cimon, Epaminondas, Asopichus, and Caphisodorus.

    Even Hercules was famous for his male lover, Iolaus, who fought by his side. In Plato’s ‘Symposium,’ he noted the eagerness of the great warrior Achilles to join his lover and military partner in death as an explicit parallel to a wife’s being willing to die for her husband. Their bones were burned and mixed together in a gold amphora, as was done in the case of married heterosexual couples.

    Aristophanes said that “..males who prefer other males are the finest men because they have the most manly nature. Their behavior is due to daring, manliness, and virility, since they are quick to welcome their like.”

    Plato and numerous other classical authors attested to the military value of armies made up of lovers. When Epaminondas fell in battle at Mantineia, his lover died beside him. One of the most formidable and feared Theban warriors of the early Classical Era was Kaphisodoros, who was part of the Sacred Band.

    GREEKS:

    Here, then are textual references for long-term (in some cases life-long) homosexual relationships in the Greek texts.

    Orestes and Pylades, -Orestes is the hero of the Oresteia cycle. He and Pylades were bywords for faithful and life-long love in Greek culture. -see Lucian (2nd C. CE): Amores or Affairs of the Heart, #48

    Damon and Pythias -Pythagorean initiates -see Valerius Maximus: De Amicitiae Vinculo

    Aristogeiton and Harmodius -credited with overthrowing tyranny in Athens. -see Thucydides, Peloponnesian War, Book 6

    Pausanias and Agathon -Agathon was an Athenian dramatist (c. 450-400 BCE). He was famous as an “effeminate” homosexual. It was in his house that the Dinner Party of Plato’s Symposium takes place. -see Plato: Symposium 193C, Aristophanes: Thesmophoriazusae

    Philolaus and Diocles -Philolaus was a lawgiver at Thebes, Diocles an Olympic Athlete -see Aristotle, Politics 1274A

    Epaminondas and Pelopidas -Epaminondas (c.418-362 BCE) led Thebes in its greatest days in the fourth century. At the battle of Mantinea (385 BCE) he saved the life of his life-long friend Pelopidas -see Plutarch: Life of Pelopidas

    Members of the Sacred Band of Thebes -see Plutarch: Life of Pelopidas

    Alexander the Great and Hephasteion -Atheaneus, The Deinosophists Bk 13

    As proven by Greek and Roman culture, homosexuality does not cause downfall to a civilization.

  • For those with any historical interest, and especially to the ones who claim that accepting homosexuality or gay people being able to marry each other will bring about the downfall of civilization.. I’d like to make a point that Greek culture, the birthplace of our own civilization, flourished for over 1,300 years. I’m not talking about the rise or fall of a particular city state or federation, or after it was absorbed into the Roman Empire, in which it still flourished.. I’m talking about the culture itself. Our nation has only been around for 238 years. Homosexuality was a large part of that civilization, and not considered ‘perverted’. I’m not advocating pederasty either; I’m simply showing that accepting homosexual people as equal citizens, and the person they wish to love and possibly marry, does not destroy a civilization.

    In the Symposium, Plato argues for an army to be comprised of same-sex lovers. Thebes did indeed form such a regiment, the Sacred Band of Thebes, consisting of 300 paired soldiers. They were renowned in the ancient world for their valor in battle. Greece importantly influenced Western knowledge in many ways. Homosexuality was a major part of Greek culture, and yet the ancient Greeks especially contributed many things to the world, from science, to medicine, to advanced architecture, to advanced mathematics, to advanced military tactics, and to astronomy. Ancient Greek philosophy focused on the role of reason and inquiry. It had an extremely important influence on modern philosophy. The art of ancient Greece also has exercised an enormous influence on the culture of many countries from ancient times until the present. If homosexuality were so detrimental to civilization, none of this would have been possible.

    It was not until the Roman world was forcibly converted, and succumbed to an unforgiving and dictatorship-like form of Christianity (completely unlike the earlier peaceful and loving form of Christianity), that we began to embark upon the Dark Ages. Christian emperors Theodosius and Arcadius on Aug 6, 390, under the advice of their bishops, issued the following edict.. an edict that would begin an evil persecution towards gay people that would last well over a thousand years: “All persons who have the shameful custom of condemning a man’s body, acting the part of a woman’s to the sufferance of alien sex (for they appear not to be different from women), shall expiate a crime of this kind by being burned to death in the public sight of the people.” -Codex Theodosius IX. Vii. 6

    Previously, on December 16, 342 AD, the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans, under advice from their bishops, had issued the following edict.. a law specifically outlawing marriages between men, and reads as follows:

    “When a man marries in the manner of a woman, a woman about to renounce men, what does he wish, when sex has lost its significance; when the crime is one which it is not profitable to know; when Venus is changed into another form; when love is sought and not found? We order the statutes to arise, the laws to be armed with an avenging sword, that those infamous persons who are now, or who hereafter may be guilty, shall be subjected to exquisite punishment.” (Theodosian Code 9.7.3)

    Enlightened nations and people now know it to be of the utmost evil to persecute gay people over how they are born, and who they wish to join in love and life with.

    The very foundation of Democracy itself, in the birthplace of Western Civilization itself.. was started by two males who were in love with each other.

    The association of homosexuals with democracy and the military was intense and widespread, extending from Harmodius and Aristogeiton, a pair of lovers who founded Democracy by overthrowing the last tyrant of Athens, to the noted generals Pelopidas and Epanminondas, to the great military genius Alexander the Great and his male lover Hephaestion.

    Of Harmodius and Aristogeiton, no less acute a mind than Plato’s observed that: “Our own tyrants learned this lesson through bitter experience, when the love between Aristogiton and Harmodius grew so strong that it shattered their power. Wherever, therefore, it has been alluded to be shameful to be involved in sexual relationships with men, this is due to evil on the part of the rulers, and to cowardice in the part of the governed.”

    For hundreds of years, larger-than-life statues of these founders of Democracy towered above Athens, as impossible to disconnect with the city as the Statue of Liberty is impossible for us to disconnect with New York.. and young male lovers from England to Egypt, and across the entire Classical world would journey there to pledge their faith and love to each other, underneath those statues.

    Gorgidas, the leader of Thebes created the Sacred Band, composed of 300 men, who were all paired lovers. They were known as the ‘sacred band’ because as Plutarch later explained, “even Plato calls the lover a friend inspired of God.”

    Philip of Macedon and Plutarch recounted how the greatest heroes in the Greek’s own history were all known to prefer other males rather than women: Meleager, Achilles, Aristomenes, Cimon, Epaminondas, Asopichus, and Caphisodorus.

    Even Hercules was famous for his male lover, Iolaus, who fought by his side. In Plato’s ‘Symposium,’ he noted the eagerness of the great warrior Achilles to join his lover and military partner in death as an explicit parallel to a wife’s being willing to die for her husband. Their bones were burned and mixed together in a gold amphora, as was done in the case of married heterosexual couples.

    Aristophanes said that “..males who prefer other males are the finest men because they have the most manly nature. Their behavior is due to daring, manliness, and virility, since they are quick to welcome their like.”

    Plato and numerous other classical authors attested to the military value of armies made up of lovers. When Epaminondas fell in battle at Mantineia, his lover died beside him. One of the most formidable and feared Theban warriors of the early Classical Era was Kaphisodoros, who was part of the Sacred Band.

    GREEKS:

    Here, then are textual references for long-term (in some cases life-long) homosexual relationships in the Greek texts.

    Orestes and Pylades, -Orestes is the hero of the Oresteia cycle. He and Pylades were bywords for faithful and life-long love in Greek culture. -see Lucian (2nd C. CE): Amores or Affairs of the Heart, #48

    Damon and Pythias -Pythagorean initiates -see Valerius Maximus: De Amicitiae Vinculo

    Aristogeiton and Harmodius -credited with overthrowing tyranny in Athens. -see Thucydides, Peloponnesian War, Book 6

    Pausanias and Agathon -Agathon was an Athenian dramatist (c. 450-400 BCE). He was famous as an “effeminate” homosexual. It was in his house that the Dinner Party of Plato’s Symposium takes place. -see Plato: Symposium 193C, Aristophanes: Thesmophoriazusae

    Philolaus and Diocles -Philolaus was a lawgiver at Thebes, Diocles an Olympic Athlete -see Aristotle, Politics 1274A

    Epaminondas and Pelopidas -Epaminondas (c.418-362 BCE) led Thebes in its greatest days in the fourth century. At the battle of Mantinea (385 BCE) he saved the life of his life-long friend Pelopidas -see Plutarch: Life of Pelopidas

    Members of the Sacred Band of Thebes -see Plutarch: Life of Pelopidas

    Alexander the Great and Hephasteion -Atheaneus, The Deinosophists Bk 13

    As proven by Greek and Roman culture, homosexuality does not cause downfall to a civilization.

    • Louis E.

      It has been an advance in civilization to no longer indulge same-sex relationships to the extent perpetrated by the classical Greeks.

    • A K Petterson

      Dear valued guest! Thank You, sir! An eminent piece of work and a great effort to illuminate the ignorant enemies! Your, with utmost capability written,comments have indeed my fullest attention and respectful gratitude. Hat off! I would definately recommend You for a knight-hood. A well deserved one! With cordiality, Andre´.

  • Tim Kern

    When will anyone look at marriage and realize that, when government gets into it, it’s just another way to manipulate privileges and scam votes?

    Marriage is fundamentally religious, a private contract between the parties. There is no reason outside of social planning and manipulation for government to stick its nose into the most-intimate relationship civilization has conjured in all its existence.

  • RGZ_50

    Jim, I think you’ve correctly identified the trend lines. I sympathize with those who believe that gay “marriage” as opposed to civil unions, is going to create some unintended consequences, but the fact is that the ship has sailed as far as broad public opinion goes.